Rick Joyner on Europe

Several friends asked me for my reflections on Rick Joyner's recently published prophetic article on Europe titled 'Seeds of World War Three'. This is what I mailed them:

Interesting article. I recognise a number of his observations, but also feel a bit mixed about this word. The increasing liberalism and perversion of society is indeed a problem in Europe, as much as in the States. The increasing influence and radicalisation of islam is a problem in Europe, as in many other parts of the world. The EU is quite corrupted from the inside, quite as much as we see in American politics. Yes, Europe is deceiving herself with her political moralism, very much like America is deceiving herself with her patriotism and political pragmatism.

The two world wars were a result of failed European politics, says Joyner. But isn't any war the failure of politics and diplomacy? How about Korea, Vietnam, Iraq? Yes, America has fulfilled a pro-active stabilising role, but it's quite pragmatic to overlook America's national interests and the many innocent lives lost in these conflicts. I'm not sure if I agree with the analysis that Europe hasn't learned from the world wars. In fact, the European Union was started to prevent war and foster international cooperation. Although it has corrupted to some extent, it was started by leaders with a Christian world view who decided to turn the tide.

One of the charms and problems of Europe is it's diversity and tolerance. The US are one country, Europe is not (yet). It's easy to judge on Europe's indecisiveness and lack of political cohesion (and this is a problem, especially with the rise of fundamentalist versions of islam and terrorism), but Europe carries thousands of years of history while America as a federation is much younger. I agree with Joyner that European leaders often lack courage, but then again - they operate in a Europe where consensus is key to move forward together. When you're leading the most powerful country in the world, it's easy to decide who to attack or align with and who not. America can afford it, Europe can not.

The axis America - UK - Germany: it's possible, though there are other possible scenarios. The interpretation that the EU nations have abused Germany's feelings of guilt is a bit over the top, this perspective is not shared in Germany and the nation is quite keen on defending her interests in Europe. Germany and the UK have a redeeming gift for Europe, sure. The assumption that the islamic population will overtake the indigenous population in just a decade in some nations is over the top. It will likely take another 100 years; still on the whole of history this is a relatively short period, and we cannot ignore this trend.

Although we can and should learn from any perspective, I have to say I've read better articles from Rick Joyner. Prophecy is not the same as political and social analysis. Nevertheless I side with Joyner that darker times are ahead for Europe, whether or not WW3 will start here. May God have mercy on us and help us take a stand for Christ and justice in the midst of oppression and confusion.

What do you think? Feel free to comment.

Comments

[[depone]]

thanks for this post.
since 9/11 I am more critical on the prophecies and analysis from Rick Joyner. In the moment of 9/11 he brought out some articles that have been more american than prophetic - I think. With this one it seems to be similar in a way.
Peace - [depone]

[Frederic]

I have mixed feeling too ..I think he is discerning and describing very well the rampant antichrist spirit raising in Europe (and it's really makes me sad) and his warning sound true. But i don't think it is "black and white" as he said. A lot of Americans peoples thinks and live like the "Europeans" today in the US . This spirit is not in Europe but very much in the US as well and it is difficult to point the finger on Europe without pointing this same finger against themselves. I don't think it will be Europeans against US (and their friends) at the end of the story. I think there will in be more surprise along the way.

Concerning the alliance Germany/Englang/US i think it is more his personal wish and desire (knowing how he loved Germany and England) than a huge personal revelation.

I am a little bit disapointed about rick because I lived in America for 4 years and i can recognize the typical point of view of the evangelical Americans about Europeans. A little bit narrow and "cliché" for me (i don't know if it is appropriate to use a little bit of French here :-). I was expected something more objective from him

So like you Marc I have mixed feelings about it and thank you for pointing out this article. I still loved Rick Joyner and his ministry. I just follow 1 thess 5:19-21 >

[Arthur Klassen]

Since the "Burning Bush" mumblings I heard echoes of before the 2000 US election (sorry, no quotes, no footnotes, just remembered echoes), that Mr. Bush was "God's man" for the presidency that year, I've had more than a few questions about the American prophetic community.

I have appreciated and treasured the ways God has worked and spoken through Paul Cain, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane and the rest. But I think insofar as any of these may unquestioningly support Mr. Bush politically, their words on geopolitics need to be examined and judged carefully and closely.

Any American presidential candidate who doesn't automatically recognize the names of the leaders of -both- of his two closest neighbours (or the corruptions thereof, see http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/mercer.asp ) long before he is elected has questionable qualifications. Any leader claiming to be a Christian who can paint an earthly conflict as a black-and-white ("either you're with us or you're against us") right vs. wrong conflict is a danger to himself, to all those who obey him and to all those they come in contact with.

If you ask me, America's habit of pointing to the EU as the so-called revived Roman Empire of Lindsay-esque eschatology is a sure sign that either

(a) Lindsay-esque eschatology is out to lunch in some fundamental ways (pre-trib pre-millenialism is a very late development in eschatology anyways) or

(b) the US may really be the revived Roman empire of Lindsay-esque eschatology ("to deceive even the Elect if that were possible"; compare the American military machine with the "most awful beast" in Daniel).

I'm speaking here as a neighbour (Canadian) and not as an American. I don't know that Mr. Kerry will make a better president and my words here should not be interpreted politically but in the interest of clear thinking about what's really going on.

To get back to the word-at-hand. Given the strong pro-Bush taint ("old Europe has lost its moral compass") detectable in it, I would also be inclined to judge this word as one of the less profitable ones Mr. Joyner has given.

cheers...ank

[andiwolf]

I agree with all your reservations.
For a more thorough look on European developments keep a close look to the Ambassador's Briefings of GEM missionary and sociologist Ruth Robinson:
www.gemission.com/AmbassadorsBriefing.asp (especially the upcoming 70th edition)
bless u

[Marc Pranger]

Quote: I've had more than a few questions about the American prophetic community.

As response do I want to put the twelve points out of the article O - boy they prophecy here... maybe it can help to evaluate prophecies like this one... And Marc ones again thanks for your comments on this prophecy...

Are there then pointers and tips that can help us to discern between true and false? Of course I realise I’m now skating on thin ice. There are bookcases full of books written on this subject and I have the silly idea to summarise it in twelve points. Forgive me, but I’m just trying to understand what God is saying. Okay, so here we go:

1. A slogan to begin with: prophecy is more than foretelling the future, more than visions and dreams. It is God’s word for today and the revelation about His word, the Bible, given by Him.
2. A prophet who knows he is a prophet trusts that it is the prophetic fruit of his ministry which will show who he or she is, and not the name on the door, the visiting card or the website. He knows he is only a tool in the hands of the Carpenter.
3. A prophet isn’t interested in being popular with people and if this does happen he will be suspicious and ask himself if this will make him popular with God. His relationship with God is more precious to him than being seen and honoured by man.
4. The prophet is not primarily concerned with the individual, local church, city, land or world. He is concerned that the Kingdom of God be established on the earth. He certainly isn’t concerned about his own honour or ministry.
5. His spiritual relationship with God is number one on his agenda because he knows the danger of being in too close a relationship with a person. Why? If someone has a very strong ‘soul relationship’ with another, especially a leader ( e.g. putting him on a pedestal, fear of the person or other strong emotional ties) then the prophet will become, in the spiritual world, the receiver of the ‘radio signals’ from the soul of the leader, his wishes, desires etc., and bring these forward as prophecy, because this soul relationship overshadows the spiritual relationship with God. This happened in the Bible with a large group of prophets; there was only one who prophesied what God wanted. Why? His spiritual relationship with God was much stronger than the soul relationship with the leader, and it therefore overshadowed that soul relationship so that he was able to receive the ‘radio signals’ from Creator Adonai. Let this be a lesson for every prophet.
Jeremiah 14:14 says, ‘Then the Lord said to me, ”The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or anointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.”
6. A prophet is not a representative of one church, but of the church. Unity despite differences will be very important to him. Why? Jesus said, ‘that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.’ (John 17: 21) He is therefore not so much ‘I’ centred as ‘we’ centred.
7. A prophet is very conscious of his own weakness and the necessity for that. Why? ‘For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness, made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.’ (2 Cor. 4: 5-7) His words will not, for the most part, be a mirror of his own weak, stumbling walk as a pilgrim on the Way, but a reflection of the Power of the Holy Spirit, the never ending source.
8. The prophetic word will, for the most part, be a mirror of the Word, without being The Word; just as Creator Adonai said in Hosea 12:10, ‘ I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.’ The prophet shall surprise himself more than anybody over how multifaceted and creative God can be in putting His message across.
9. A prophet feels the love of Yeshua for His people and for the lost and is prepared to take risks in order to stand between them and the Creator. Why? Love, the love that made Jeremiah pray, ‘O Lord, we acknowledge our wickedness and the guilt of our fathers; we have indeed sinned against you. For the sake of your name do not despise us; do not dishonour your glorious throne. Remember your covenant with us and do not break it. Do any of the worthless idols of the nations bring rain? Do the skies themselves send down showers? No, it is you, O Lord our God. Therefore our hope is in you, for you are the one who does all this.’ A prophet will gladly stand in the gap for the sake of the truth but also for love’s sake even if he ends up between a rock and a hard place because of it, because people often don’t understand this. Therefore he frequently ends up stuck between the harbour wall and the ship!
10. A prophet will be very reticent about taking a particular viewpoint when it comes to theological positions and differences, but will point to the Word. This is what Jesus did in his conflict with satan, ‘it is written’, and look at the way he answers his nephew, John the Baptist when he was in prison and questioning whether Yeshua really was the Messiah. A prophet will have a thorough knowledge of the Word, not so much quotations but the principals and truths contained in them. Not a lesson learned in the head but a knowledge flowing out of the heart.
11. A prophet will be very reticent about saying, ‘Thus says the Lord’ over a word but will be more inclined to say, ‘I have the impression that…’ A prophet knows his own weakness and therefore expects his words to be tested.
12. A prophet is thoroughly aware that his calling is difficult to explain and above everything else he needs to be obedient to God; freedom in the Spirit not in order to sin but to obey. He knows very well that there is no straightforward answer concerning what, where and how to speak. He is therefore not so much a man of prayer as a man who relates to and communicates with Creator Adonai – this goes further than prayer can. This in order that he can do what he must do, ‘Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, “Now I have put my words in your mouth. See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant.”(Jeremiah 1: 9-10) How He will do this is His concern. What He says here to Jeremiah is for every prophet but the how and what will be a very individual task for the individual prophet. A prophet will then take his position on the Way and take on the adventure with God, from God and for God.

[jonah]

An interesting side note that would seem to refute Joyner's concept that Anti-American sentiment is growing in Europe:

A study was released today here in Spain today that was conducted by major newspapers all over the world. In every single country surveyed in Europe, sympathy for Americans is actually growing... while approval of George W. Bush is shrinking. I think Europeans are intelligent enough to realise that "W" has been going against the wishes of the American people for some time now and that his actions abroad have NOT been an extension of the will of the vast majority of the American people.

Anti-American sentiment is down, Anti-Bush sentiment is up. Europeans are intelligent enough to see that Bush does not egual all Americans...

[Anon]

Christianity is about love centrally. About forgiving our enemies and turning the other cheek. About overcoming evil with good. But when some of the prophets we have treasured for so long say that no, you overcome the enemy by dropping a bomb on him, then we know we have a problem. The maimed kids laying in their hospital beds cry out to Jesus tonight against the Christian leaders who have innocent Arab blood on their hands. Jesus, hear us! Cast down these men of violence.

[patricia]

Hi, Marc. (Before I start, let me say that the Netherlands is one of my favorite countries because of all the water and BICYCLES!!!) And I'm not even trying to be political!

HOWEVER, this topic caught my interest, but I must say, without knowledge. I haven't Rick Joyner's recent prophesy, nor do I intend to. But I am an American, and I have a streak of "large view-ness" in my personality, so I wanted to comment.

If you have been following the Hebraic roots movement, you would find that worldwide our Father is drawing multitudes to an understanding of the Jewish of Jesus, and of the importance and prophetic connections between the patterns and feasts given to us by God, through Moses.

I have also been avidly involved in missions (tho as a "Sender") for over 2.5 decades. This Hebraic Roots movement always puzzled the missions side of me. I couldn't connect them, until the Lord told me that the time of the Gentiles is drawing to a close.

Hence, whether we live on one side of the ocean or another, I believe we're going to see all nations come into antipathy with Israel. A keen Biblically based and God given discernment will be needed in the end times. From my European acquaintances (through hosting in our home and being a friendship partner) I have gathered that one of main differences between European young people and American young people is the amount of solid Biblical knowledge they have, and pursue.

Prophecies can come and go. The true ones remain. But for each of us, we need to know where we fit in God's plan, what the Lord expects of us. And THAT is only discerned through GOOD grounding in the Word of God, and a keen ear to hear the Lord.

In 1991, the rabbis in Israel declared that THIS is the time of Jacob's trouble. My personal feeling in coalition with that is that IF we are in the end times, and let's say the Lord Yeshuah Himself will return sometime in the next 10 years, then HE will be putting those in power that need to be there to draw all nations toward Armegeddon, with perhaps a WWIII before that. It's not a pretty picture, and I don't like it. And right now, I'm not sure which of our Presidential candidates will fulfill that role best.

We have many Muslims here in the US, too. Our area is just larger. We have lots of everyone here . . . Chinese, INdians, Vietnamese, Mexicans, South Americans, Cubans, you name it, we got it. And fact, we ARE them, too. . . . Why do a lot of people want to come here, or to Europe for that matter? Because they can live with more freedoms and earn a better living. Those are certainly fine virtures to follow. What worries me more than a WWIII, is living in a world that requires a "mark" to deal commercially. It's the materialism and the lure of it, and the not willing to suffer, that worries me more than another war.

Just my 2 cents . . . .

[Mike McDonald]

Hello, I always enjoy your newsletter and your website. Thank you for posting the article about the Rick Joyner "prophecy". I have to state that I am not a fan of the "prophetic" movement and in general think that most of what they publish is pure rubbish. Often so vauge as to be interpreted the way you want to and with few verifiable facts or issues.

This "prophecy" seems to be another of the same general ilk, though the details will be able to checked over the next few years. When/if they prove to be false will anyone hold Mr. Joyner accountable, or like so many others will this be forgotten and a new wave of "prophecy" be issued.

As an American, I believe that our culture is as sick as anything in Europe, if not quite so blatant. The issue however seems to be that the culture of the world is sick...it is anti-Christ. Our kingdom is not of this world and we need to stop thinking that way. They Gospel is about the Kingdom of God, the kingdoms of the world will become His kingdoms when He sets up His rule and reign. Until then we are to be in the world and not of it.

I pray for our president. I think he is trying to do the right thing, but has made some terrible mistakes. I cry for the dead civilians in Iraq and in all the other areas of the world where the sword is being used as a way to bring peace.

American is not the "great satan" nor is Europe. If only those who spend their monies and time following the latest "prophetical trend" would instead spend time and money preaching the Good News of the Kingdom. If so we would see many "prophetic Movements" dry up as they tend to fail when the money fails.

Just the thoughts of an American planting churches in Russia....

May His Will BE done and His Kingdom come.

[anon]

Whether or not Mr. Joyner is wrong or not or in sin right now or not - we have to love him. Each of us have sins in our own lives as well - so we need to gently correct, acknowledging the great debt that we do owe to truth through the lives and ministries of Mr. Joyner et al. So though I tend to be harsh one also has to love becasue we have just the same (or more) faults. So let us try to help Mr. Joyner revert back to love-centered Christianity while at the same time honoring and loving him and paying lots of attention to our own faults as well. Lots of grace and love for everyone.

[Anna Durieux]

Dear Marc,

thanks for starting this train of thought!!

I have a few thoughts to pass on for what it is worth:-

1. Like all the above mentioned comments I too have questions about the Joyner article. But that is not bad in it self. After all Rick is not infallable, and we as individuals are called to 'test every spirit'. Just because someone was or is right once, does not mean that they will be right all the time.

2. When I became a christian, I left my old life behind (well I am on my way) and took on a new identity. This identity also affects my nationality. I am now first and foremost an ambassador for Christ, and His Kingdom. That is now my home country. All the world's nationalities, however good or bad, fall short compared to His Kingdom. We need to be careful that we are patriotic for one kingdom only, otherwise we will confuse those we speak to. This mistake, made so easily, is and has been a major stumbling block for many leading figures.

3. Is it important to understand the strategies of the enemy? Yes, but be careful, because our enemy is a deceiver, and he is very good at his job. This battle of ours is not about earthly countries (though it seems that way) ours is to be fought on a different plain, with Christ as our commander. Therefore it is more important to be able to hear and understand His voice, so we can act on His word.

4. Finally, it is good to pay attention to deception, and to test prophets and prophecies, as well as all the goings-on in the church, as long as our primary focus is on God, and doing what He tells us to do. Otherwise we become 'the deceived'.

God bless you and your family and all the readers of your news, may He keep us close to Him, and alert to deception.

sincerely
Anna Durieux

[Anon]

Feeling convicted here so probably needing to apologize to Mr. Joyner whose heart is pure even if / though he makes / made mistakes. Maybe if Marc has his email address then well-wishes could be sent to him via email?

[Dave]

We all know in part and prophesy in part - something that Rick Joyner is good at reminding us.

I have greatly valued his prophetic / teaching materials relating to the church and the spiritual issues affecting it.
When it comes to world / national perspectives I am in no way as sure - but then perhaps in the former I am much more on the same wavelength so it makes more sense (to me)- whilst politically / culturally there is much more of a division - consequently much more room for misunderstanding etc

I remember before the last elections in the UK - Cindy Jacobs gave a word relating to violence and riots on the streets. That in itself was suprising I suppose most of us would have exopected somthing along the lines of the EU, abortion, homosexuality etc even more suprising that out of the blue came a spate of riots in northern england between muslims and racially inspired whites.

I guess there are prophetic words at different levels - so lets be not too quick to judge.

The great need of both Europe and America is a movement that seeks God for Himself - to what extent that can turn the tide and "change history" only He knows.

[Dave]

I found that reading an earlier bulletin helped to put this current one in perspective.

see

http://www.eaglestar.org/pages/special_bulletins/February_03/SB_24_2003.html

[Concerned European]

Dear Marc and friends

I have read Rick Joyner´s message on Europe and I happen to find it rather balanced and accurate. If we take out the word "prophetic" in the sense of "hearing directly from God" and understand it as "discerning the times" I think he is right on target. The European criticism on Joyner and the American president gives me more reason for concern than his article. I mainly find these sorts of analysis more as expressions/reflections of the leading political and intellectual elites in Europe than of solid and autonomous Christian thinking. I believe we have all the reasons to be concerned about the spiritual situation in Europe ( which is also reflected in the politics of the European Union and its member states )than to try to defend us by saying that the Americans are worse. This does not mean that I subscribe to everything Rick Joyner stands for or has written in the past. Not at all. But with this particular piece I feel that he is back on the right track. Let me conclude by saying that I am not an American citizen but a rather concerned European who would have happily voted for George W Bush. I believe the minute when we start to acknowledge the fact that the greatest horrors of modern time has come out from Europe ( and incidentally the nation to stop them has been the US ) we may start to become a bit more discerning about our own societies and lives.

[Marc]

Thanks for your input, Tomas.

Of course we have to discern the times and take an honest look at ourselves, I don't think I denied that. I side with Joyner that darker times are ahead for Europe and that the Church should seriously seek God to take a pro-active stand in prayer and justice.

I didn't defend Europe by saying America is worse, as you suggested. I just don't think Joyner is very balanced in his approach and too much viewing Europe from an American patriottic point of view. That's his good right, but I feel free to put that into perspective.

Yes, the greatest horrors of the last century came out of Europe. WW1 and WW2 wore horrendous, though I don't think the whole continent can be blamed for that. And yes, God used America to save Europe. But that doesn't mean America now has a blank check when it comes to world politics.

I'm glad I didn't have to vote for either Bush or Kerry. It would have been a quite impossible choice. The statement I've heard from some Evangelicals that as a Christian there's no other choice than Bush is just nonsense. There are more issues than gay marriage and the war in Iraq. How about social justice and caring for the poor? When I heard Bush's 'victory speech' last Wednesday, talking about America as the greatest nation in the world, I thought: did I miss something here? Honestly, if he would be a bit more modest and realistic about himself and his nation, the world could live with America much better. And I don't think I'm expressing the view of the Dutch government or the EU here. Looking at biblical standards, Bush can be praised in some areas and criticized in others.

But hey, I don't want to redirect the attention from Europe to America. Let's focus a bit more on the issues at hand in Europe: where do you think the Church should take a stand?

[Mark Roberts]

Let us not forget that the two world wars came out of Europe.

The subsquent formation of a new European Union of nations was largely an attempt (i) to start anew without personally identifying with the sins of our fathers and (ii) to build an international political structure - in order to contain national ambitions - rather than to seek reconciliation through the cross of Christ.

I believe the dormant spirits of war in Europe will come to life again - unless and until Europe acknowledges that Jesus is the only way. Recent events indicate that Europe is moving even further away from this achnowledgement.

[Marc]

The two world wars started in Europe (although technically speaking the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor turned it into a world war), but there were two clear aggressors: Germany and Italy, and the other nations can in retrospect only be blamed for their naive appeasement politics.

Germany is actually an example of a nation that has acknowledged and processed the sins of the fathers (and is still doing so even 60 years after the war). Italy, and also the Vatican, has had more difficulty with this, but hasn't kept silent either. Berlusconi's support of Israel is an example of that.

[Lisa Kindervatter]

I am disappointed, as I read yours and others response, that Christians are so ready to jump to political prejudices in reading a prophecy. When I read Rick's prophecy, I didn't hear anything political in it eg "America vs. Europe" or a comparison between America and Europe. Why must we always default to this? I have lived in many countries in my life, but mostly America. I have always been taught that Europe is our friend and ally. When I go to Europe, I am shocked to hear the deeply ingrained prejudice against America. It shows in how people are "hearing" this prophecy.

We must rise above this. We are first and foremost God's people and citizens of His Kingdom; this citizenship comes before culture and country. If God gives a prophecy to warn Europe, that is His love. It doesn't mean America or any other country is guiltless--we have received and will receive warnings of our own. Just listen to the Holy Spirit without human judgment--be open, and be ready for what is coming.

[Lisa K]

Another thought occurs to me which I would like to add if I can articulate it..

Marc, in going to the political realm you brought up a concern that "There are more issues than gay marriage and the war in Iraq. How about social justice and caring for the poor?" I also read a very interesting remark by Mark Roberts stating the goal of the EU is "(ii) to build an international political structure - in order to contain national ambitions - rather than to seek reconciliation through the cross of Christ."

Since we are talking about Europe here and not America, there is something here worth noting. European secular socialism is rooted in the premise that strong government, the rule of man (666) and the rule of human spirit apart from God is the answer to peace, the answer to the poor, the answer to inequities in social justice. As the writer so aptly pointed out, this is antithetical to the true solution: submission to the cross of Christ. It also sounds a lot like the description of the philosophy of a one-world government and and it's anti-Christ spirit. The promotion of the type of government sets the stage for the kinds of problems the man of God propesied about.

This socialism began in Europe and is making inroads into America, much to the chagrin of American Christians, who tend to see it as I have mentioned above. Because Bush has not embraced it, we have supported him, as well as the moral issues. We feel that it is Christ through His church--not the government--who should be the main source of help for the poor and oppressed since it is we--not the government--who has the true keys. And since Christians are extremely active in missions and outreach, we do not look to nor desire interference from any government on this. Our agendas are different; their is to exalt the rule of man, ours is to exalt the rule of God. This is a fundamental and very important philosophical idea that must be remembered if you truly want to understand American Christian thought in this area.

[Lisa K.]

Sorry--to add a P.S. about Iraq in the context of this....While others accuse America of imperialistic designs on Iraq, I see it as very, very different from the kind of imperialism practiced by Europe for most of modern history, and from the present desire to see all the world under one international government. Although I do not believe democracy is the salvation of mankind, American Christians do agree with the concept that individual countries should be free and sovereign to elect and plan their own governments in this life. They must give account to God alone at the end. For better or worse, the wars that you mentioned, including Iraq, were entered into not for the purpose of absorbing those nations into our own (as was the practice of European colonialism) but the supposedly to help those countries preserve or win their sovereign freedom. Again: it boils down to individual freedom/sovereignty vs. submission to a one-world government...key issues for Christians looking to the end times.

[Marc]

Thanks, Lisa. Good thinking.

Several questions/thoughts related to what you write:

1. Are prophets always 100% pure in what they pass on as God's perspective? If so, then why is the Church required to test it? Or, in other words: are we as citizens of the Kingdom really free from a cultural bias? For me it's a rethoric question. I notice a clear patriottic tendency in the American prophetic movement, so as a European believer I would filter this out. Eat the meat, throw away the bones. Of course Christians in Europe also have a limited perspective. That's why we need each other in the worldwide Church. So thank you for offering your perspective, to balance mine.

2. I agree that the Church is called to minister to the poor. But what is the biblical basis for your suggestion that social justice is a requirement ONLY of the Church, and not of non-Christians, the government, etc? I don't see this, as God seems to have a more holistic approach to this issue that is so close to His heart. The biblical prophets, who majored on social justice issues, often confronted the kings of their time. Looking at the immense costs of the operation in Iraq, the fact that many American citizens live in poverty, and that Bush's tax policy is mainly good for the rich, the question I raised is completely legitimate. It's a question of priorities.

3. Yes, the spirit at work in the EU at the moment is that of secular humanism, which is in essence anti-Christian. It's a point of serious concern.

4. Is American imperialism really that different from European imperialism? Both were motivated to some extent by power and greed. I don't think many people will buy the argument that America is mainly interested in an independent democracy in Iraq. It is in America's national interest to have a government they can work with. Oil interests are key. If the democratic goverment of Iraq would vote to kick the Americans out and not sell oil anymore to America, there would be another invasion for sure. Also one could argue to what extent democracy is biblical, isn't the forceful promotion of democracy also a form of Western imperialism? After all it were the secular humanists (French and American Revolution) who promoted it most. Finally, related to the issue of incorporating land: America as we know it came into existence by stealing land from the indigenous people, and killing many of them. I'd suggest Bush hands over power back to the native Americans. ;-)

I'm posting these reflections online, to keep the discussion open. Feel free to respond.

[Lisa Kindervatter]

Thanks for your points!

1. Are prophets always 100% pure in what they pass on as God's perspective? If so, then why is the Church required to test it? Or, in other words: are we as citizens of the Kingdom really free from a cultural bias? For me it's rethoric question. I notice a clear patriottic tendency in the American prophetic movement, so as a European believer I would filter this out. Eat the meat, throw away the bones. Of course Christians in Europe also have a limited perspective. That's why we need each other in the worldwide Church. So thank you for offering your perspective, to balance mine.

Many of your points are good and well-taken. Certainly our present day prophets are not 100% accurate. Joyner himself asserts that as the re-discovery of the prophetic gift in the church is fairly recent, the church is on a huge learning curve and not as mature as it will be in this area. So, we of course should not take everything point blank. Having said that, and having been amongst prophetic congregations for almost 30 years, I have also seen that in many cases the effort to “discern” a prophecy is in reality often just a person’s resistance to a Word that is difficult to hear, or resistance to the person who is speaking it (an American???). We must discern our own hearts first.

I have been wisely taught by my pastor that in order to truly “discern” a prophetic word, and if the person who is giving the word is a generally accepted and often accurate “prophet” in the church, we should go through the following steps:

- Receive it with an open mind, even if we feel resistance within ourselves at first (in other words—don’t immediately reject it).

- Take it to the Lord and ponder it, not only with regard to the scriptures, but also asking His help in examining our own hearts honestly (we can all use the scriptures very adeptly to prove almost anything—that doesn’t guarantee that our hearts are open to His voice).

- Listen to others’ feedback.

- Make a humble decision—meaning that, even with all this, we must be open to the possibility that we could be proven wrong.

As regards culture: Surely it is difficult to divorce ourselves completely from our culture---but it should the goal we reach for. There are particular things that influence American Christians. I’ve no doubt that some of it is culturally induced and we are not always aware of it. And there are also some realities about life and politics here with regard to Christianity that the average European does not know. My desire is that European Christians become aware of these things so that we can feel your support and increase our unity and see God’s hand in our very different circumstances.

2. I agree that the Church is called to minister to the poor. But what is
the biblical basis for your suggestion that social justice is a requirement
ONLY of the Church, and not of non-Christians, the government, etc? I don't see this, as God seems to have a more holistic approach to this issue that is so close to His heart. The biblical prophets, who majored on social justice issues, often confronted the kings of their time.

Actually, my suggestion was that the church should be the main source of help for the poor—not the only one. Certainly civil governments are responsible for protecting their citizens, and in cases where human rights are grossly ignored, present day “prophets” do and should speak up (Martin Luther King was one of these prophets in America). However, it is the tendency of mankind to look to a King (the government) instead of God and that is the problem. It was never God’s plan for Isreal to have a king; He wanted His people to look to Him for rulership and listen to the prophets. But they wanted to be like other nations. He gave them what they demanded but the history of Isreal and it’s kings proves what an utter failure it is when man tries to rule himself apart from God (see I Samuel, Kings and Chronicles). This is the fine line I see.

In modern times, we see democratic governments gain power over the people and keep it by pretending to care for the people—offering all kinds of freebies in exchange for votes. People become more and more dependent on the “King” and less on God for their daily bread, and they become, in essence, slaves. I have been on mission to a Native American reservation and have seen the fruit of where this kind of “care” leads after about 100 years. 100% reliance on welfare, 90% unemployment, 80% high school drop-out rate, soaring depression, substance abuse and suicide. No ability to care for themselves. Is this really the way God wants us to care for people? I don’t believe so—but it does get the politicians elected again! What is it but another form of serfdom?

Again, this goes back to my main point as to why Christians are suspicious of socialism. It always ends up being anti-Christian (even anti-religion in general) because it does not want the people looking to anyone but the government for their needs. American Christians have begun to feel the effects of this as the liberal socialists in this country have been systematically removing any mention of God—whether in prayer, on memorials, in documents, in music or even in just saying “God bless you” when someone sneezes—from public places. Mr. Clinton and his party promoted this and everything offensive to Christians in a very “in-your-face” way, whereas Mr. Bush has done the opposite. Can you understand our feelings on these things? As you can see, it is much deeper than abortion and homosexuality.

3. Looking at the immense costs of the operation in Iraq, the fact that many American citizens live in poverty, and that Bush's tax policy is mainly good for the rich, the question I raised is completely legitimate. It's a question of priorities.

Actually your statements are word-for-word the talking points of the liberal democrats, but having strong connections to Europe myself, I know that these are the only points you will ever get in your media, since it mirrors the dominant liberal movement in Europe. But there are other perspectives that you are never exposed to. Other side of the argument is, our economy has grown in spite of the great hits it has taken since 9/11, largely due to tax cuts. Empowering businesses by giving them money to invest in the end causes markets to prosper, businesses can hire, make more purchases, increase wages. As regards the poor—we had poor people even before we went to Iraq, during the liberal years. I live in a state that is highly liberal (lots of taxes, lots of programs) but we still probably have the highest concentration of poor people in the country. The government will continue to care for them, as will Christians, but war or no war, you will never eradicate poverty. Again, witness the Native Americans plight.

It used to be that way in all of America in the 1970s—total liberal domination of the media and education government. Christians were looked down on and very marginalized. We prayed and prayed for God to raise up Christians in each of the above-mentioned areas. God has answered our prayers over the last decade in an amazing way. Alternative news media and internet blogs now give a whole other side of the argument, so one can make a more balanced judgment. People like Mel Gibson are taking a stand for Christ in Hollywood. More Christians have been elected in congress than ever before, and we even have a president who supports the things that matter to us, which I have already gone into in some depth above. We see the hand of God in answered prayer. Can you rejoice with us?

4. Yes, the spirit at work in the EU at the moment is that of secular
humanism, which is in essence anti-Christian. It's a point of serious
concern.

Then Christians must not align themselves with it or support its man-exalting goals, just as I will never support it's counterpart here in the US.

5. Is American imperialism really that different from European imperialism? Both were motivated to some extent by power and greed. I don't think many people will buy the argument that America is mainly interested in an independent democracy in Iraq. It is in America's national interest to have a government they can work with. Oil interests are key. If the democratic goverment of Iraq would vote to kick the Americans out and not sell oil anymore to America, there would be another invasion for sure.

Hmmm--power and greed are indeed always present in secular governments. There also are many who don’t buy Europe’s insistence on “peace” as something noble, since more than one European government in recent history has stood to lose billions in business deals made with the world’s dictators if war broke out. However, the truth probably lies somewhere in between both these extremes—there are both elements of greed as well as noble elements present. I acknowledge that there are those who are genuinely concerned about keeping the peace in Europe because it has been such a fragile one. This I understand. Europeans need to understand that many Americans—even in government—genuinely do want to see oppressed people free and sovereign, and feel a sense of responsibility to help them when they are bullied, since we have the means to do so.

6. Also one could argue to what extent democracy is biblical, isn't the forceful promotion of democracy also a form of Western imperialism? After all it were the secular humanists (French and American Revolution) who promoted it most. Finally, related to the issue of incorporating land: America as we know it came into existence by stealing land from the indigenous people, and killing many of them. I'd suggest Bush hands over power back to the native Americans. ;-)

Stealing from and killing the indigenous people....something we learned well and carried on from our British, French and Spanish colonists. A true blot on our history. Handing power back to the natives will be difficult, since they are in the condition I have mentioned above. Even the liberals know this, which is why they've never tried it. They must be empowered first, or they won’t survive. However, it is difficult to wean people off of government dependence once given, and nobody wants to be accused of abusing them again. So there you have it—they will stay as they are, I predict. But, as regards Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Serbia, WWI and II, and even the cold war, although America was the most powerful it had ever been and it could have done so, it did not conquer those nations with the intent to absorb them into our “empire.” We attempted in each case to stop others from doing that very thing! And in doing so, we also protected ourselves. This is not the typical pattern of imperialism.

No, as I said before, democracy is not the salvation of mankind. Jesus is. But keeping countries free and sovereign, not under the rule of a dictator OR a secular international body is in the best interests of Christians wanting to spread the gospel.

Thanks for the discussion! As I said before, it is my heartfelt desire that European Christians be able to understand their American cousins and to increase our support and unity for each other. Thanks for the opportunity to write.

[Craig Smith]

I don't understand why these "prophets" have failed to mention that the 911 attacks were not perpetrated by any Islamic Terrorists at all? The evidence is so overwhelming and readlily available on the Net that it is embarrasing. Anyone who looks at ANY pictures or footage of the Pentagon will notice the ABSENCE of a Jumbo 757, its parts, fuel, bodies, or debris. How can anyone believe a 757 travelling 400MHP only left a 16' hole in the side of the building WITH THE ROOOF still attached??? The pentagon's own video release SHOWS NO AIRLINER AT ALL!!!!
So.......why do the "prophets" follow the party line instead of exposing the lies.

Another look at ANY footage of the Trade Towers in Slow -motion will show MILITARY RE-FUELING 767s crashed into the Towers not American Airlines. News people on the ground were interviewed and quoted saying as much. Also, Building 5 and building seven fell down with NO DAMAGE AT ALL to them. If you time the falls with a stop watch you will see that they were DEMOLISHED WITH EXPLOSIES!!!
Why the cover up from God's "prophets"?????